Fascism and Nationalism is just political trolling

[SocialistAndFree]

Nationalism - identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

Nationalism on its own can be closely related to patriotism and isolationism, which can be viewed as simply wanting what is best for your country and protecting it from outside influence. However, a nationalists tendency to forfeit factually inconvenient information in service to their countries goals highlights their penchant for dishonesty that is even more apparent when we talk about fascism.

Fascism - What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments has been a complicated and highly disputed subject concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets debated amongst historians, political scientists, and other scholars since Benito Mussolini first used the term in 1915. Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall". (from Wikipedia)

The following 14 Points of Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco describe traits of fascism.

• The cult of tradition, characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.

• The rejection of modernism, which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.

• The cult of action for action's sake, which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.

• Disagreement is Treason. Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.

• Fear of difference, which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.

• Appeal to a frustrated middle class, fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.

• Obsession with a plot and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also antisemitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.

• Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.

• Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy. Because "Life is Permanent Warfare", there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

• Contempt for the Weak, which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.

• Everybody is educated to become a hero, which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

• Machismo, which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."

• Selective populism. The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."

• "Newspeak". Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

If nationalism is "doing or saying whatever is necessary in favor of your country and its goals'', then fascism can be seen as "doing or saying whatever is necessary in favor of a romanticised 'traditional society' and its dominance". Nationalists will often lie to provoke its followers to action. By contrast, Fascists must lie to you by necessity.

Keep this in mind while we review the primary delivery vehicle for fascist ideology, the Jewish Question.

While most "well researched" fascists are not shy about their anti-semitism, tragically, the talking points that feed this narrative are mainstreamed and regurgitated wittingly or unwittingly by "moderate conservatives" who may not harbor any sincere hatred toward jews or even know about the JQs link to fascism or Nazis.

The narrative: National identity, social cohesion and cultural values are being supplanted by a minority of powerful elites exercising undue influence on the population through policies and social engineering.

Some of the ways this is taking place are:

• "White Genocide" - The promotion of race-mixing and "degenerate" sexual behaviors in porn and popular media such as homosexuality or transexuality to immasculate men and destroy the nuclear family. (Machismo)

• "The Great Replacement" - The import of third world immigrants by means of open borders or lax immigration laws. Helps to keep white birth rates low. (Fear of difference)

• That all of these actions are being carried out by leftist groups like BLM, Antifa, feminists, communists ect., and are being artificially propped up by rich oligarchs (jews) like George Soros. (Obsession with a plot)

• Because rich Jews control most if not all aspects of society, any action or righteousness meant to uplift marginalized groups, no matter how sincere, is self-defeating, since the means by which these actions materialize only exist to serve the elite and the state of Israel.

Is there any truth to the Jewish Question? Sure. But fascists seek to exploit emotional reactions and critical misunderstandings about facts regarding the modern world. Remember, in order for fascist sentiments to take root, they must lie to you, wittingly or unwittingly, by necessity.

One glaringly obvious example of this in practice is the demonstrable fact that immigration is never really bad for your country:
https://youtu.be/TXR7xFCYq_c

Nationalists and Fascists alike will nonetheless insist that lax immigration laws:

• Brings in crime, poverty, disease, and drugs.

• Destroys social cohesion.

• Steals welfare and jobs from citizens.

• Is an act of war by your government on you.

• Is a call to action for "true patriots" to defend their homeland.

So to conclude, I'll continue to insist that Fascism and Nationalism is just political trolling.

Troll - a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception.

[Christopher Shilts]

This reply will take some time to write up. Did you write that whole post yourself for this forum, or is it a copy pasta job?

I often see arguments like these against fascism and nationalism. As before, I see fascism and National Socialism being lumped together as basically the same thing. Before we can properly understand what nationalism is, we have to define what a nation is. For me, a nation is a people, regardless of what lands they possess or government they live under. Lands change hands, systems of government come and go- but a people endures. Therefore, to my understanding, nationalism is a healthy love of one’s own people, often combined with a desire to do what’s best for them. It is perfectly reasonable for a nation to put their own interests ahead of others, just as a family would prioritize the needs of its members over strangers. That doesn’t mean they must seek to dominate or exploit others, rather that they protect their own.

If we are to speak about America, I would say it ceased to be a nation a long time ago. Rather it is an empire with many nations within its borders. The actions of the empire do not reflect the best interests of the nations residing within it (except perhaps for one of them). Rather it serves the monied interests, including a military-industrial complex that feeds off death and misery.

So, let’s see where we agree and disagree on those 14 points about fascism.

Tradition plays an important role in nationalism, and fascism. I believe tradition is generally good, but things can be taken to excess (such as female genital mutilation is certain Muslim countries). I can’t think of any fascist state that took tradition so far that they rejected learning. This sounds more like a theocracy, where all truth is contained within the holy texts.

I agree that we have descended into depravity. Too much focus has been made on the individual and his rights at the expense of society. The result has been a low trust society with high rates of crime, illegitimacy, and despair. We have headed down a very dark path, and I fear it will only get worse.

Action at the expense of thought? I suggest you give Mussolini’s doctrine a read. You’ll find that action without thought was rejected in the very first sentence:

Like all sound political conceptions, Fascism is action and it is thought; action in which doctrine is immanent, and doctrine arising from a given system of historical forces in which it is inserted, and working on them from within.

Disagreement being conflated with treason under fascism is open to interpretation. As I understand it, shortly before his assassination by anti-fascists, Giovanni Gentile was advocating for the freeing of anti-fascist intellectuals. Sir Oswald Mosley (leader of the British Union of Fascists) gave a speech in support of freedom of speech. Fascism isn’t inherently against free speech.

I’m not certain if fascists promote a fear of differences / foreigners so much as they do a love of their own people and culture. The fear isn’t necessarily against foreigners so much as it is that they may loose their culture, or have their people watered down via a mixture with other peoples. This is a more nationalistic thing than a fascist one.

The middle class appeal used to be a socialist one. Union and socialist leaders where against mass immigration, knowing full well that this cheapens labor in a country while simultaneously raising living expenses. There’s nothing inherently fascist about it, rather this is an observation of reality. Mass immigration is a net detriment to the proletariat, and a boon to the capitalist class.

But there is a plot, which was made quite clear by Joe Biden. As mentioned above, the Oligarchs want cheap labor and a high cost of living. But it’s worse than that. They want to divide the working class against itself, so it’s incapable of organizing meaningful resistance to wage slavery.

Our enemies are not “too strong and too weak” at the same time. Rather people are so divided that they can’t fight back. A united populace could never be taken advantage of on the scale Americans have. We are divided in nearly every way imaginable, including race, sex, sexuality, age- now even “gender identity”. Then there’s the fruitless two party system, where often both opposing candidates are funded by the same oligarchs- thus whoever “wins” office, it’s the same people running the show.

There’s a schism between fascists on the jingoism issue. Old school fascists like Mussolini advocated for military adventurism in an effort to reclaim the glory of Rome. Francisco Franco (who may or may not have been a fascist) kept Spain out of WWII. Oswald Mosley was very anti-war- he tried to prevent WWII (and was imprisoned for his efforts), remaining outspoken against it until his death. To him, and modern fascists (as well as nationalists in general), WWII was a fratricidal war in which Europeans killed millions of their brothers and sisters for no gain. A phrase you’ll often hear repeated by neofascists is “No More Brother Wars”.

No comment on contempt for the weak, except partial agreement: fascists believe the strong should lead, the weak follow. And frankly, would you want to be governed by weaklings or strong men?

I don’t get the death cult thing. That happens with soldiers in war, and isn’t unique to those fighting for a fascist regime. Soldiers fighting fanatically for their country is quite common during wars, especially if they are fiercely patriotic. And incompetent commanders squandering their men’s lives can be found throughout history.

The machismo thing is partly true, in that men are taught to be more masculine. But to say fascists have contempt for women is just nuts. Women are the only means by which a people perpetuate themselves. Fascists and National Socialists promote motherhood. The NSDAP (which you seem to think is fascist) even gave out honors and privileges to mothers.

How would you suggest the "will of the people" be interpreted, and implemented as policy? In a “democracy” political opinion is formed by the press, which often ends up controlled by a handful of families. What most people think are their own thoughts, have been inserted by someone else. You may hold some things as convictions, but try to find out why you believe those things sometime.

Newspeak? Really? Exactly which parties and movements in western countries have been renaming national roads, parks, buildings, etc? Who is telling us we can’t use various words anymore, because they might offend people? And why are books and songs being censored?

Could you name some examples of nationalists and fascists lying to their people?

And what is this Jewish Question you’re talking about? Do you think Neo-fascists or nationalists are advocating a final solution of some kind? If they are, I haven’t heard about it after being in the nationalist movement for over a decade. The strongest thing I’ve ever heard nationalists advocate is for Jews who kvetch about anti-Semitism in their host countries to move to Israel. That and we complain about Jewish interest groups openly trying to turn us into a minority in our lands- this isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a fact that’s even bragged about.

It’s kind-of hard to listen to that video you posted, due to the gameplay noise. Could you cite something I can read?

Thanks for posting, I look forward to reading your reply.

[SocialistAndFree]

Did you write that whole post yourself for this forum, or is it a copy pasta job?

I wrote and saved this to call back to but, the 14 points of Ur-Fascism is from wikipedia.

For me, a nation is a people, regardless of what lands they possess or government they live under.

I've found that people don't use the word "nation" to refer to a "race of people" unless they are ethno-nationalists like the Aryan Nation or Osage Nation. When I say nation, I'm refering to the country contained within borders and the citizens of that country.

Therefore, to my understanding, nationalism is a healthy love of one’s own people, often combined with a desire to do what’s best for them.

It's uncritical patriotism with xenophobic elements. It would be one thing to just be uncritically patriotic. But the added xenophobia just makes it even more wrong as explained down below.

I can’t think of any fascist state that took tradition so far that they rejected learning.

Dude, we live in one. Fascists dont always outright reject learning, as stated in the point in question. There is reinterpretation and refinement. There is a national outcry about Critical Race Theory right now. And fascists have always tried to inject or at least keep religious values and traditions alive in schools... as well as a push for more parents to drag their children out of public schools and homeschool them! Even if nobody buys any of that, the ways we fund schools in this country is quite telling. To suggest that we value education in this country would be a joke.

This sounds more like a theocracy, where all truth is contained within the holy texts.

Yeah. Theocracies and "socialist" states can be fascist too. Like diagnosing narcisism, you only need to demonstrate a few of the traits, but never just one. You will probably never find a regime that hits all 14 points consistantly.

The middle class appeal used to be a socialist one.

Yeah. As I said, fascists must lie to you by nessecity. Fascists like Adolf Hitler notoriously adopted socialist rhetoric and exploited economic anxieties to wage a bigoted war. You can't very well convince soldiers to take up arms and die in another country on the promise that capitalists back home will do really really well, even if it is true.

But there is a plot

Again, fascists seek to exploit critical misunderstandings. We all know the owner class is a problem. We all see how jewish they are. Fascists point at the overwhelming jewishness of the owner class and link the two, because its easier to scapegoat a minority of jews than take on a powerful elitists and force real wealth redistribution. By scapegoating jews fascists can sheild their own capitalist element from the same fate. Thats why fascists like to bitch about George Soros instead of Sheldon Adelson or Charles Koch. A socialist will never lie to you about who the real enemy is: it's the owner class, not jews. I'm an anti-capitalist, not an anti-semite.

Rather people are so divided that they can’t fight back.

Leftists are actually pretty united on an anti-capitalism and intersectionality. I feel like the ones dividing the people on that front is fascist and nationalist outlets that are waging non-stop culture war propaganda about the left being anti-freedom and anti-egalitarian when there couldn't be a more backwards worldview.

the strong should lead, the weak follow. And frankly, would you want to be governed by weaklings or strong men?

Libertarianism at its core is left-wing. Fascists believe not just in strong leaders, but that some people ought to rule over others, and as a leftist, I reject the concept. The point of left-wing movements is ultimately to minimize hierarchical organization (and not by forcing it either, that's authoritarian, but by fostering peoples freedom and ability to speak for themselves, specifically in the hands of minorites who have been disadvantaged and never had the opportunity).

But to say fascists have contempt for women is just nuts.

Are you sure? You absolutely do not have to like or even respect women to fuck them or reproduce with them. Saudis barely let their women fuck at all, let alone do much else. Is that a society that doesn't view women with contempt?

Women are the only means by which a people perpetuate themselves.

Movements based on exclusion and purity, which nationalism and fascism are, will only get smaller unless you get your labor from immigration or birthing. Taking away womens bodily autonomy is the only way you can artificially increase birthrates. You can do it naturally by "promoting" maternity or rewarding it but thats a policy that is sexist, is it not? It's usually because people are poor and insecure that they dont have kids. You can say that this is a result of a jewish conspiracy, in which case I would direct you to my anti capitalist arguments.

Exactly which parties and movements in western countries have been renaming national roads, parks, buildings, etc?

Renaming roads and parks is pretty inconsequential and doesnt really amount to limiting critical reasoning by restricting vocabulary.

Who is telling us we can’t use various words anymore, because they might offend people?

Would looking at a group of gender nonconformists and calling them all trannys sound like someone who wants to bring nuance and understanding to the various aspects of that community to you? It sounds to me like someone who is content with not thinking critically. I know you probably think PC is cringe culture policing, but it does serve a purpose. It's like how atoms in an electron microscope look like fuzzy balls compared to the diagrams in a textbook. The textbook diagram does a better job of explaining the function and structure of the atom. "Undocumented immigrant" is just more accurate and descriptive than "illegal alien" or just "illegal".

In a “democracy” political opinion is formed by the press, which often ends up controlled by a handful of families.

I will have a post later in regards to news media.

And what is this Jewish Question you’re talking about? this isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a fact that’s even bragged about.

The conspiracy is that Jewish nationalists do horrible shit to the "others" with their wealth and power just like other nationalists do. Our problem seems to be with a slanted economic system of capitalism but nationalists of every kind seems to be motivated by the fact that their guys are not on top of that system, even when they clearly are. What a pointless squabble. In the end it helps no one and hurts everyone. Nationalists need to be political pariahs.

Mass immigration is a net detriment to the proletariat, and a boon to the capitalist class.

It’s kind-of hard to listen to that video you posted, due to the gameplay noise. Could you cite something I can read?

I can just explain it to you here. Actually, every group of people that comes to this country benefits us economically, legal or illegal, even when you take welfare drain into account. The only wages that dont see an increase are high-school dropouts and commodity prices go down because of an increase in labor power. If you want to be on top you need labor, just like any other resource.

[Christopher Shilts]

I'll try to reply to some of the points you've made. Going through things line by line is rather time consuming. My first reply ended up taking several hours, as I did research that led down various rabbit holes.

Your definition of nation is my definition of country, or state (states like Japan, not Michigan). I think we can agree to say country in this context.

Let's say for arguments sake that nationalism is xenophobic ( I don't think it has to be, but let's say it is). Is xenophobia always bad? Is it wrong for the Tibetans to want to remain Tibetan? You may be aware that China has been colonizing them over the span of several decades now, and the people of Tibet have practically lost their sovereignty. The Chinese have even imposed upon them laws which regulate reincarnation, likely aimed at allowing the CCP to select the next Dalai Lama. If the Tibetans where strong enough to overthrow the Chinese, and restore Tibet to the Tibetan people under a nationalist government, would you consider that a bad thing?

CRT is being handled completely wrong in my opinion. It should be an open debate. Instead it seems to have turned into yet another way for anti-whites to guilt trip white people for their original sin of "whiteness". I even heard reports of white children coming home crying to their parents, wanting to know if they where evil because of their race.

What's wrong with home schooling? From my experience, public schools suck. They told my mother I'd never be able to read. She taught me how, and by the 8th grade I was reading at a college level. I was also home schooled for about a year, and when I re-entered the public school system I was about two years ahead of my peers. I don't know what your experience have been, but I think public schooling is basically a form of daycare for the worker drones offspring; freeing parents up to wage slave away the best years of their lives to companies that treat them like garbage. As for funding, I think each kid ought to get an allotment which can be transferred to a private institution, with the parents making up the difference. Forcing talented kids to attend a no child left behind public school where they will be bored out of their minds and likely bullied by mental midgets is practically child abuse. And it's certainly no way to educate our future doctors and scientists.

Again you say Hitler was a Fascist. He took the concepts of fascism and created something new called National Socialism. There where of course overlaps, but one could do the same with Fascism and Communism. And capitalist leaders gin up wars for their military industrial complexes, but dress them up via propaganda. That said, Hitler didn't even want WWII, at least not against the British and French. From what I read, he fell into a depression for several weeks when they declared war on Germany over Poland. His goal was to get to the Soviet Union (which had already murdered millions of people) via Poland. We ought to have a new thread if you want to discuss WWII.

I appreciate that you acknowledge the makeup of the owner class. It would be silly to insist all our problems are because of Jewish oligarchs, but they certainly have enormous power for such a small group. And this group works together, with organizations such as the ADL and AIPAC to promote their interests. Even Trump admitted that "Israel literally owned the congress". This is from a man who spent his short political career sucking up to AIPAC, and has a Jewish daughter. But yes, I'll agree with you that the owner class is the problem regardless of their race or religion. But I think the Jewish one might be a bigger problem Per Capita because they see themselves as outsiders not only in terms of wealth, but also their racial-religious background. Regardless of politics, they circle the wagons when their racial interests are threatened. I learned that when popular radio talkshow host Michael Savage started defending Harvey Weinstein when he was accused of being a sex fiend. If I recall correctly, Savage said "We Jews need to stick together". This was after bashing the man's movies and politics for years. I later found this racial solidarity to be very common among Jews. Gentile whites on the other hand have been practically deracialized, with millions of them eager to condemn other whites for the slightest perceived wrongs committed against an outgroup. Many consider throwing members of their own race under the bus as way to signal their moral superiority. I fear this self destructive behavior, combined with other races in-group solidarity, may lead to our extinction.

You'll have to go into more detail about left-wing movements trying to minimize hierarchy. You can start by telling me if you think the Soviet Union or Communist China are left wing. And frankly I think the left-right dichotomy is a outdated way of trying to explain politics. If you've ever taken those two axis political tests, you may have been very disappointed with the results. I had much more fun with this one: https://8values.github.io/

How much can hierarchy be minimized? According to Dunbar's Number, human groups can't organize in a decentralized manner much past 150 people. Once you get beyond a very small village style society people end up in various social, political, and economic organizations. Within these organizations there have to be leaders and officers at different levels. Whether they are appointed according to merit or for other reasons may be within the memberships power to decide, depending on the organization and its purpose.

I'll agree that women can be treated like property and retain a high fertility rate. But I'm not aware of any fascist regime that openly stated women where supposed to be treated like shit. Here's an Italian gold coin from 1931, you'll notice a woman is on the reverse in heroic form. According to Numista:

Italy as a woman with a torch on her left hand and an olive branch in the other, standing tall on a bow of a ship adorned with fasces. On the right the value and the date, together with the year of the Fascist regime.

2] Italy 100 lire 1931-Varesi.jpg (122.14 KiB) Viewed 11590 times

Pictured below: female members of the British Union of Fascists saluting their leader- Sir Oswald Mosley:

Female-blackshirts-in-Hyde-Park.jpg (50.52 KiB) Viewed 11590 times

How is boosting fertility rates by having a pro-natal policy sexist? Which is worse: a global-capitalist society with low rates of marriage in which both men and women have to work full time to make ends meet, or a nationalist one in which the man earns a good wage with which to support his wife and children? Is it so bad for women to stay home and look after their kids, instead of pursuing a career only to realize too late that they want children? Under a patriarchial-nationalist system, these supposedly oppressed house wives have a lot of time to spend with their friends and family, forming the foundation of the community. In our current global-capitalist system women often return from a job they hate to an empty home, and try to fill the family void via the consumption of goods and services. This keeps the economy moving along, but it destroys the soul.

Renaming roads and parks is pretty inconsequential and doesnt really amount to limiting critical reasoning by restricting vocabulary.

Let's add cancelling people's careers, unpublishing literature, and altering movies to the list. Due to cancel culture, people are afraid to speak their minds and express themselves. This current state of affairs smothers the human spirit.

PC culture goes further than asking people to try to not hurt others feelings. One should never be forced to accept cosmetic surgery as a genuine substitution for biology. The transgender issue should really be its own topic. We'll have to disagree on undocumented immigrant being more accurate than illegal alien. The former makes it sound like a failure of the government to process their papers, while the latter accurately states that they have committed a crime by violating our country's borders.

Are nationalists on top of the American social, political, or economic system? It seems to me that the majority of big money is behind the Democratic Party. Check out the map near the bottom, with the breakdowns of where the 2020 presidential election funds came from. You'll see that the per 1,000 people figures are heavily slanted in Biden's favor. My interpretation is Biden was the rich man's candidate that time. If this holds, then the rich are for the most part not nationalists, considering Biden's policies, and past statements praising European-Americans becoming an absolute minority. Furthermore, it was the rich who pushed for the globalization of the world's economy. It wasn't the working class average joe who shipped our industries to China, and impoverished manufacturing towns across the country. So, what positions do you believe the country's owners take that are nationalist in nature?

Finally, do you have any proof that large scale immigration raises wages for the working class? It seems rather counter-intuitive. Yes, they create more labor (at least those who come to work), but they also consume resources the native born workers could have utilized. Furthermore automation appears to be accelerating, phasing out human labor. We might end up with a very large class of unemployable people, worsened by mass immigration.